Interview With Laurel Holloman

from www.afterellen.com
by Malinda Lo, Managing Editor.
January 20, 2008

After five seasons of The L Word, Laurel Holloman's character, Tina Kennard, has gone through a lifetime's worth of dyke drama. After several breakups, makeups, a baby, a boyfriend, and a diva on a dysfunctional movie set, Holloman told AfterEllen.com that this season has been her favorite to shoot since Season 1.

For those who were exasperated with Tina's behavior over the last couple of seasons, Holloman urged, "Don't give up on Tina. … She's figuring it out."

Although in recent years Holloman has focused on The L Word and her family — she is married to production designer Paul Macherey and mother to 3-year-old Lola — astute lesbian filmgoers will remember her breakthrough role as baby butch Randy Dean in The Incredibly True Adventure of Two Girls in Love (1995). Holloman also played vampire hunter Justine Cooper on the third season of Angel, and has acted in at least 25 films.

I spoke with the upbeat, friendly Holloman before the premiere of Season 5 of The L Word, and she opened up about Tina's story lines, learning how to play Randy Dean, how much she loved kicking ass on Angel, and her own real-life girl crushes.

AfterEllen.com: I know you probably can't tell me much, but can you give me any hints as to what we can expect from Tina this upcoming season?
Laurel Holloman: She's just full steam ahead in her career, she's producing a movie, and it's really exciting. There's lots of drama, and she has a very antagonistic relationship with Jenny, Mia Kirshner's character, and it's fantastic. We had a lot of fun. I love working with Mia — we work really well together.

So there's some of that, there's some dating, and, you know, there's some Bette and Tina stuff. I can't say what it is, but it's great stuff — it's good. In the last year, you started to see how they became friends, and I think that they needed to do that because they have a lot of wounds. I think that you'll see that continue, and you'll really see them start to really just talk to each other. There's a lot of Jodi, too.

I don't think I can say much more than that. But it's great. So far it's been my favorite season to shoot.

AE: Oh, that's great.
LH: This season and first season were probably my two favorites to so far.

AE: That's great. When I met you at GLAAD last May, you said that it was really hard for you to shoot last year because Tina was off with Henry so much.
LH: Yeah, well … in a way I had a lot more time off, and I tried to enjoy that time with my family and just know that it's an ensemble and things circle back around. I wanted them to explore the relationship with Henry just so that you could understand … why she made that decision, and then understand also why it doesn't work. I think we did touch on that.

It's just as an actor you always want to explore more. But I don't think people want to see his character that much. I totally understand that, too. I just tried to ask Ilene [Chaiken] as many questions as I could so I could come in with whatever was happening with Tina off-screen that maybe you didn't see in the writing, so eventually when you did see it, it made sense. And I think it did.

It's obvious that — and I think you see it up towards the end — when she's on the beach with Annabella Sciorra's character, with Kate [Arden], that she still … has very strong feelings for Bette. Obviously I think … [Bette and Tina] behave in certain very reactive ways and they don't always stay in touch with what they're really feeling and how they're behaving, which is very human.

AE: True. So she was definitely flirting with Kate Arden at the end of the last season. Does she come up too?
LH: It's ... all drama, but I'd say this season is more about the focus on the central characters, the original characters, and those friendships and those relationships. Tina is very much back in the core group, and she's a lot happier. I'd say she's a lot better off and she's in her place. She's not nearly as lost.

For me, the first season and the fifth … kind of bookend everything where you can see this huge arc in between. There was a time my character was very lost, and it's nice to play her more in this season because she's more grounded, she's doing great with work, she's finally at not such a volatile relationship with her ex. And she's back in the fold, so to speak. Do you know what I'm saying?

AE: Yeah. Absolutely. That sounds great.
LH: She's on her own. That's all I'm saying. She's on her own.

AE: Do you have input into how her story line develops?
LH: I don't have so much input in how the story line develops. If there's something that stands out that I'm like, "Whoa, I don't see that happening," I can always say that to Ilene and maybe to Angela [Robinson], but this year it was written so well and it was just really fleshed out. And Rose Troche came back and directed an episode, and I think that's going to be a fabulous episode.

It felt like a really good season, so I just showed up and tried to work as hard as I could, and just be on it. I feel that Ilene listens really well, and she also directed two episodes this year. It's really great working with her, because it's really nice to go to her when you have a question because she knows what's going on. She's written it. She's got a strong idea of how it should be played, and each episode that she directs, the better it gets, I think, because it's just well-thought-out because it's so close to her.

So in that regard I didn't … really want to change anything. If you have an impulse about something, she'll let you go with it. There's a nice freedom on our set, which I find refreshing. Sometimes you try things, and they don't work and you shoot it differently on the next take, and sometimes you try things and you get really interesting stuff and it feels great.

I think that comes from [how] Ilene does have an openness, and I think Jennifer [Beals] and I come in with some ideas [and] try to ask as many questions as we can, and we've already created such an intense history. It's really nice to go to work with her and try to find these things along with the history that we have.

AE: Yeah, it sounds to me like you're saying it's kind of getting back to the same feeling of Season 1.
LH: Yeah, I think so, but still some new characters [are in this season] that are going to be really exciting. The movie industry and the film that Tina is producing really does become a really strong story line, and there are some new characters in that. And it's just there's some great comedy and some great characters. … So it's kind of like back to the original friendships with some new fresh characters added.

And you'll still see Jane Lynch and Cybill [Shepherd], and they're fantastic. But I think there was a strong focus on the friendships of the original characters this year.

AE: That's great. I'm sure that you've heard some fans complaining about Tina's character when she goes back and forth. How does that make you feel?
LH: You know, I feel that it's a five-year show and an hour drama, and if I stayed the same, people would also complain about how boring my character was, too. So the way I feel is I just — the plot, story line and all of that — I have to just follow [it],because that's my job. And then the behavior I create around it is sort of up to me, so I have to ask the questions: "Why is she behaving this way? What's going on?"

Ilene's always really good about creating characters that aren't just black and white. They have little shades of gray, and they don't always behave so perfectly. As an actor it's much more interesting, and I think she created a very likable character in the beginning, and then Tina didn't behave in such a great way in a lot of ways, but that was OK.

I don't think she was that happy all the time in that eight-year relationship. I think she's been stifled, she's been smothered. One thing Ilene always said to me is one reason [Tina] goes to Henry is because she's in a less traditional relationship. She was Bette's wife, and she wasn't happy. Henry lets her have her job, he lets her have a say-so. He's one of those modern males that sort of gets it.

And in that time Bette's character has changed a lot. Like that scene where Tina goes, "You're a control freak!" is really an important theme. She's coaching her on Jodi, but it's doesn't take — it's not until Bette gets in a relationship with Jodi that she sees what her behavior did in those eight years. Also, Tina was betrayed.

AE: Right.
LH: So she's still reeling off the fact that for those eight years she was completely monogamous. I think that's part of her nature, and I think you don't get past those betrayals so simply. I don't think once you're betrayed, unless you're just like a doormat, you don't go back and go, "I'd love to be your wife again! I can't wait for you to cheat on me again." That would make a really boring character.

I have to love who I'm playing, because you can't really judge your characters. If you do, they don't play that well, so in some ways I do understand her — in a lot of ways I do. And I think ... like so many of the other characters, we all don't sort of play it so great. [laughs] It's a drama!

AE: Well among the characters of the show —
LH: Yeah, I personally feel like I don't act for likeability, I act for the truth of the character. I think that's important as a performer, because you have to find the inner truth of why someone's behaving this way. … I think people probably like the way she's behaving this year [laughs]. She's doing the best she can. She has her reasons, too.

I think it's interesting because when I meet a lot of fans, people fall on either one side of the fence [or the other]. They're like: "Oh, yeah, my ex cheated on me. I went off with someone else too." It just happened to be that Tina went off with a guy, so it just depends on maybe where you were in your partnership or what role you played.

I do think the one thing about Tina that hasn't changed is she's kind of monogamous by nature, and she has an intense loyalty. Before she hooked up with Henry, she did break up with Bette. They were broken up. And so I think when you see her dating, she's not a player. She has to have a connection, like even with Helena she had to have some sort of connection.

A lot of that connection was based on Helena seeing Tina as beautiful at a time where she didn't feel beautiful. She'd gained weight, she's pregnant, she'd been betrayed. She wasn't feeling so good about herself and there's this connection that's made between those two women, and so Tina goes out and has a full-on relationship while she's hugely pregnant. That was a whole interesting thing to play.

And it's not like — if you want to look at other characters — it's not like Tina's out there hooking up all the time. A lot of what's explored in fifth season is how does she date? How does she do it? One of the great lines in fifth season … is, "Bette sets a high bar." She's picky, you know, Tina's really picky. I think she's a romantic, and I think Bette has been the love of her life. … It's hard to just sort of date. And what's she gonna do, pick up a younger girl at a bar and go, "Woo, we had a good time!" It's not exactly in her nature. I don't think she seeks sex to gain power, that kind of situation. She has to feel connected with somebody.

AE: You have shot a lot of love scenes throughout the five seasons. What was one of the hardest ones to do?
LH: The end of the first season.

AE: The fighting one.
LH: The fighting one. That's probably hands down one of the hardest scenes I've ever shot. But Jennifer was great and we had Tony Goldwyn [as our director], who is very patient because he also was an actor. I think he took a lot of time. We rehearsed it, and we blocked it, and we talked about it.

A lot of people saw that scene as some version of a rape, but if you really pay attention to what happens in the scene, it's full of anger and grief and sadness, and Tina actually puts Bette's hand inside of her. So it's not a rape. She's trying to find any last bit of empowerment — that turns on itself in a sexual situation — and Bette is just trying to get forgiveness out of it and love back. And she's going through grief and loss and like, "I didn't mean to hurt you," trying to reconnect.

One of the reasons we did shoot that is because we also wanted to show that in relationships it's not always sweet and tender sex, and when you get something as dark as a betrayal in such a long-term partnership in there, the sex is going to turn dark. And it did, and no one had really shot that. I think they've probably shot it in movies in heterosexual scenes and stuff, but not really in any lesbian scenes that I've seen.

It wasn't like we intended to make anything super dark, it just — that's what organically started to happen. I think Jennifer also came away from it being very proud of that scene because it was so difficult.

And … I'm extremely proud of the scene we shot in the pilot where after the potential threesome, where we're looking for sperm, turns into a really fantastic love scene. It's a real journey for me because I also did a sex scene with Jennifer when I was eight months pregnant, and I did a sex scene with Rachel Shelley when I was six months pregnant, and both of those scenes are beautiful to me ... in the way that they celebrate the female body. They celebrate the power of motherhood and this beautiful gift we're given as women to be able to have children, and they're completely unique in their own way.

I really love the scene between [Bette] and Tina when they make love after they've gone to the ultrasound and they look at their baby. When you look at the different journeys that they've had, of course in this amount of time and what they've gone through, these are the types of scenes that you would reflect on … and I think it's possible if they had scenes in the future that they would be really unique, too [laughs].

AE: [laughs] I'll take that as a hint.
LH: I do. I mean, I don't really know. But I would imagine that if they had scenes in the future, like wow, think of all the history they have now!

AE: Well you guys have really —
LH: From whether, like, do they have experience with other people? What's happening? But I wouldn't know. I would just imagine that.

AE: You and Jennifer Beals have really great chemistry together, so I think Bette and Tina work well as a couple whether they're together or not. But if you had to choose from among the other couples on the show, what are some of your other favorite couples?
LH: I think Alice [Leisha Hailey] and Tasha [Rose Rollins]. I remember when I first saw one of their love scenes in an early cut, I was blown away. They just look so beautiful together. I mean, they both are so beautiful, but I just felt like there was a really interesting dynamic between the two of them. I just think Rose Rollins is just amazing, and Leisha's energy in everything that she creates with Alice is just really great.

AE: What's the atmosphere like on the set? Are you guys all together, hanging out all day?
LH: You know, it just depends on what's going on. Some people hang out more, it just depends on what your shooting schedule is and how many scenes you have. Like I probably hung out more this year with Mia and Rose, and sometimes with Jennifer, sometimes not. … My character has a lot of stuff with the new people because most of the new people on the show are part of the movie, so there are some really great actresses coming in and I had stuff with them, like Malaya Rivera Drew and Kate French, Elizabeth Keener, who is fantastic.

So it just sort of depends on what you're shooting and where, because it's also a balance of what else is going on in your life. Like my daughter and my husband went back to L.A. for a little while towards the end, and so I hang out with the girls a little more during that time. And Kate [Moennig] and Leisha and everyone is like, "Oh whoa! I'm glad you're like goin' out with us and dancin' all night, havin' some shots."

It's not like I take the time to do that that much when my family is there. It's a hard juggle because we do shoot long hours. But the thing that's easy about it now is that we just all know each other really well. And I think we all know what we want to do with the characters and it's just like a family. Yeah. It's nice, and there's a lot less drama, I feel.

AE: Was there drama in the past?
LH: Yeah, I mean I just think it took a couple years to get adjusted. Not bad drama. It feels like a comfortable chair that you like sitting in. [laughs] … Like a family. A family with less dysfunction [laughs]. … I guess that everyone feels so lucky to have [it], and that's a nice thing. And I think we know that at some point that it will end, and knowing that … creates a real sentimental slant on it, and also just a real sense of pride that we've accomplished what we have, and then just the hope that we get maybe at least another year or something.

AE: So you guys haven't had any hints about whether they're going to pick up another season?
LH: No. We haven't had any. … I'm not even sure if Showtime knows. With the writers' strike, that puts another slant on it. I still don't know what that would do. I think everybody just tries to stay focused on the present. There's not much we can do. … To me it's like people are really excited about this season.

AE: I wanted to ask you about something that happened quite a while ago. You basically got your break shooting The Incredibly True Adventure of Two Girls in Love, and at that stage there were very few lesbians in TV and film. That was only 12 years ago, and things have changed so much since then. Now you've played this really iconic character on The L Word, which is part of the reason that we see more lesbians on TV. How do you feel about being part of that major change in pop culture?
LH: Proud. The simple answer is just I feel very proud. And you know, they're probably connected. I'm sure one of the reasons that they considered me for L Word maybe was based on the fact that I did Two Girls, but I also had to go in and prove that I was Tina. Tina's different than Randy Dean. Like Randy Dean would never grow up to be Tina.

AE: Absolutely. They're very different people.
LH: They're really different people, and to me that felt really good, that a character that I pulled out of my back pocket when I was in my 20s — I was nothing like Randy Dean. It took four weeks to get her down, and I still watch that movie and go, "Oh, maybe I could have done this or that," but I fought for that movie, and I changed my appearance, and I did tons of research.

A lot of that had to do with how intense Maria Maggenti is, and how wonderful she is, and how much she helped me create this character. … I think a lot of people think they just plucked me off of the street, but I had actually done a lead in a movie before that where I looked completely different from Randy Dean. You wouldn't even know. I've even worked with people that say that Two Girls was one of their favorite movies and still didn't realize I was Randy Dean after they've sat with me for a while. And that's fantastic to me. That's kind of what it's all about.

But it's really amazing, because when we did Two Girls in Love there was that whole question of, "Is anyone going to watch it? Is someone gonna buy it? What's gonna really happen?" And that's connected also to things like Go Fish. I don't know if we would've gotten bought if Go Fish hadn't gotten bought. Then Go Fish did well, and we got really lucky and we went to Sundance with it, and it's just sort of this journey.

To me the beautiful thing is that The L Word reaches so many people … in so many different countries, and that's just something that independent film can't always do. Two Girls was great in the way that it opened up a lot of doors. I shot 25 films after I made that movie, maybe even more now, I'm not sure. But it really opened up all of these doors, but a lot of them were also in independent film because that's what I was focused on because that's where I started, and that's where I thought the freedom was lying — within the writer-directors.

I still believe very much in independent film because it's not navigated or dictated by a studio or a network, but it's such a celebration to be on L Word and have it get picked up, go for five years, be in so many countries. You really feel that when you go over to Europe and you meet people in London, and people travel to London from Japan because they've seen it, and you hear the stories of how they had nothing to watch until this show. That's when it starts to hit you that you've been part of pop culture, and you've been part of something that's having a social impact and a political impact in a time that we need it.

You know, I would be very curious to see what happens 10 years from now. To me it's a great compliment — I mean, in a whole body of work, I've played two lesbians, but they were both really fantastic women in a great way, and I'd play another one in a second if the writing's good and it's something I believe in. I guess I'm sort of an example of, if you play a gay character, it only can help your career. I believe that it just doesn't matter any more.

AE: That's great, because I'm sure that when you took the role of Randy, people probably told you that it was a risky move, but obviously it has paid off.
LH: Yeah. Mostly the people that represented me really supported me because they had also seen me do a lot of different things, and I think they thought, "Yeah, here she goes. We're just going to let her go do her thing." There were times where I think I was maybe told to be a little more ingénue-y, whatever that is — I don't even know if I am really what that is.

But I just sort of look for interesting parts, and then I kind of think of who the character is, and then I think of what they look like, then I think of intellectually how to break them down psychologically, you know, try to do my homework and then show up and present it. And I think sexuality is an aspect of that.

Just like for Tina, I came into that thinking, oh, she came out in college, she's had all these girlfriends, blah blah blah, and Ilene and Rose Troche were like, "No, no, not like that." I'm like, "Really? What's it like?" And they're like, "She was with a man," and then, Bette flipped her. I was like, "Really? OK."

It shows you that sexuality for Tina — it's an aspect. It's a part. Then as she falls in love with Bette, she was with her for eight years, then it starts to become her identity. Then when she's not back with her friends anymore and she dates a man, she loses part of herself, so then you see what does it mean for someone in their 30s when they go through this entire journey. Very different than the person who's out in high school, the Randy Dean. Randy Dean would have never gone with a guy, but essentially that was the makeup of her sexuality — different from Tina's. That's what's really fascinating to me with characters.

I mean, every character I look at now — because of the work I've done — I will always look at it as part of a history, like, has this person had a lesbian experience? Has this person only been straight? Is this person bicurious and they're completely pent up and angry and frustrated? [laughs] I think that's your job as an actor, to really assess every aspect of that person. Is this person asexual? Is there something very disturbing and dark about this person? You have to go in there and look at all of that and you have to be fearless. That's all I want to do.

When it's all said and done, I want people to say, "Gosh, she was fearless. She shot when she was about to give birth and she was enormous and she was fat, and she's fearless," you know, or, "She did this crazy scene and it looked like it was a rape, but it wasn't. It was grief, and a relationship that was deteriorating."

It goes back to the likability thing, and I think as far as the career goes, it's the fearlessness that interests me, not the trying to mold yourself to fit into something that makes everybody go, "Oh yeah, she's castable," because then you've lost the thing that makes you unique.

I remember working with this person who's very famous, and he's a great actor, and he said to me one time: "Don't compare and contrast. Really celebrate what makes you an individual, and don't compare yourself to anyone else's career and you'll have a great time while you're doing it." And he also used to say things like, "What we do is not who we are," and those things I find to be true.

Like, if you let certain things in your life happen to you, like have relationships, not have relationships, be in love, have a family, have a child, all of those things will enhance your work. But if you just focus on the work and don't do those things, then you don't really have that much to pull out.

AE: You've also played a lot of roles that are not lesbian, obviously, and one of them was that really kick-ass chick on Angel. Do you miss playing those kind of roles?
LH: Yeah, I loved that role. … At that time I just lived in New York, I was just kind of doing my own thing, and I didn't really understand the cult following of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. But it was really my manager who said, "You need to take a good look at this because I think it's really good, and Joss Whedon writes really well, and the actors really love his stuff." And of course when I took a second look at it I was like, "Yeah, this is amazing."

They said that the prototype for the character was Ripley from Alien. They wanted an older person that had some edge and had a fight, military vibe, and I went in and read for them and I got in my car to go home, and they offered me the part right there, and that was really exciting. I was only supposed to shoot a few [episodes], and I think I shot eight. … It was really a wonderful experience because it was a strong woman that was angry and violent, and it had a lot of stunts in it. At a certain point you have to go, "Oh wow, am I ever going to really play an action hero? Maybe not, but I'll play this!" And it was great.

And he [Joss Whedon] writes great stuff for women. All of his women are really edgy and there are a lot of metaphors in his writing, and there's just a lot of sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek type of stuff. I think it taught me a lot, too, about not taking it all too seriously, and that it's about character and it's about good writing. … That was my first experience with long-term TV, and then I went right into L Word after we finished that season, and I just had so much fun.

I didn't realize how many people watched Angel until right after it came out and [found out] that it had kind of a cult following. The funny thing is Jennifer Beals has watched all of Buffy and all of Angel. She's a huge fan, and that cracks me up. [laughs] She loves it, and I'm really glad I did that part. I'd love to do something like that again.

My fantasy would be to do some version of The Brave One, the TV show version of it. I'm very fascinated by how people behave in moments of grief and loss. … I'm also interested in the ferociousness that motherhood creates and how animalistic we become after we have children, and ultimately what it means to protect them. Those types of things interest me.

AE: Those are deep issues to delve into.
LH: I know, I should try to go for a comedy but it just doesn't really come my way [laughs].

AE: What are you looking at now?
LH: Nothing right now. I'm just back slowly starting to audition and meet and see if anything fits, and hoping the show [The L Word] goes again, and we'll see. I don't know. There's a couple things that I'm hoping for, but I don't know.

AE: Is there a question that you always get asked in interviews?
LH: Yeah. It's amazing because you guys never ask this and Diva and She magazine, they never ask "What's it like to kiss a girl?" But sometimes you'll get a straight publication that's like, "What's it like to kiss a girl?" and I just want to laugh at them. I want to be like: "It's really nice. You should try it."

I don't know what to say to that question because it's just a silly question to me at this point. That question is like a dinosaur. It's dated. You know what I'm saying? That's kind of silly. … Like hey, let's talk about these characters, let's talk about these women, let's talk about these relationships, let's talk about the political climate we're in. What do you feel like when you watch me kiss a woman, I don't know, can you answer it? I know who my character is, and this is part of who she is, this is part of everything that makes her up.

AE: I have another question for you. Who's the first girl you had a crush on?
LH: The first girl I ever had a crush on when I was younger was Kristy McNichol.

AE: Kristy McNichol. Classic choice.
LH: Classic, and probably eventually Jodie Foster. But I don't know if that's a crush or just somebody that I admire so much. It could be one of those talent crushes. But I remember just thinking that Kristy McNichol was probably the coolest thing I've ever seen, and Little Darlings?

AE: Yeah, that's what she was in.
LH: Yeah, I just remember there was so much soulfulness, if you look at that film and her trying so hard to be tough, and underneath being very vulnerable. I'm trying to think — I didn't have any girl crushes in my life when I was younger, real-life ones, and after I shot Two Girls in Love, I got a crush on someone that worked on that movie.

AE: Oh, OK.
LH: Yeah, so there you go.

AE: Anything more that you'd like to tell me about that?
LH: Just that, um, that — that crush probably turned into my first experience with a woman, and it was beautiful and amazing, and it never happened again, and I wished it had. But anyway, there you go. [laughs]

AE: That's great.
LH: But now I'm married, married and monogamous. Very married, very happy.

AE: How old is your daughter now?
LH: She's 3.

AE: Three, OK.
LH: Yeah, yeah, and I have an honesty that I probably shouldn't have so much about all of these things, but I learned a lot from Two Girls until now, and one thing I've learned — because I have had people try to tell me what I can say to the press — [is] I just like to be myself. And that's what I want to emulate for my daughter, that it's OK to be honest.

AE: That's wonderful.
LH: I'm not a person that wants to live in a state of fear. Oh, I know a weird question I'm always asked! What do fans do? Has a fan done anything weird? And, um, no. Because I don't live in this state of paranoia about fans, and I've been really lucky, and everyone's been so gracious and so excited that the show's there.

I mean, even when Tina was behaving badly, I went out to Dinah Shore and I did some autograph signing, and like I kind of booed Tina's behavior, and they did too, but then after that everyone was really nice to me [laughs]. I'm not just saying this, it's really the truth: We have the best fans! We have the best fans.

AE: Is there anything else that you want to tell your fans?
LH: Thank you. [laughs] And don't give up on Tina. Don't give up on Tina, that's all I have to say. She's trying to find her way back into her true self, and I think she had to take this time to grow as a person, and just grow up a little bit and figure out who she is outside of the dynamic of that relationship. She struggled with who she is in that. She's figuring it out.

AE: That sounds very hopeful.
LH: Yeah, everyone has to remember that Bette's in a relationship with Jodi. Tina's doing the best she can. She's alone. She's the loner now. So that takes a lot of courage, and I think that's where Tina starts to really mature.

AE: I look forward to seeing it. I really do.
LH: Yeah, good. I love your website!

AE: Oh, thanks! I'm glad you do.
LH: Yeah, I just think that you guys do a really good job, and I just think it's great.

Official Fan Site of The L Word

Something for the Girls

From Issue of Curve: Vol. 14#1

Written by: Laurie K. Schenden Photographer: Carol Segal

It’s late summer and I’m heading to Vancouver, B.C., where the hot new Showtime series The L Word is shot. I have the chance to visit the set of this first-ever lesbian ensemble drama, and I’m not about to miss it.

The show stars a talented — and attractive — group of actors: Jennifer Beals, Pam Grier, Laurel Holloman, Katherine Moennig, Erin Daniels, Mia Kirshner, Leisha Hailey, Karina Lombard and one lone male, Eric Mabius. The writing team includes several names familiar to lesbian circles, including Guinevere Turner (Go Fish, American Psycho), Rose Troche (Go Fish, Six Feet Under), Angela Robinson (D.E.B.S.) and Ilene Chaiken, the show’s creator.

None of the actors are around when I arrive about noon to the location shoot, at a warehouse-turned-studio with a line of trailers parked out front.

Inside the cavernous soundstage, it’s clear who’s in charge — director Rose Troche. She might be among the shortest in the room and dressed in jeans, a hooded sweat shirt and gym shoes, but she’s a commanding presence. Blocking camera angles, consulting with technicians and giving orders, she’s also quick with a smile or a joke, and the set feels relaxed.

Pam Grier, who’s made a career of playing foxy crime fighters (Foxy Brown), is in every scene today, playing the dysfunctional diva Kit. Her scenes include a limo ride, a studio arrival and a music video rehearsal.

In the original pilot (which never aired), Grier’s character was one of the lesbian friends. A few changes have occurred since then — Mabius replaced Scott Bairstow, who has legal troubles, and now Grier plays it straight as Bette’s (Jennifer Beals) half sister. She makes a believable diva in shimmering black pants and sheer top over a black halter — and she does her own singing.

“Pam is so amazing,” Jennifer Beals says later in the day, as we sit together on an off-camera sofa. “She’s got so much energy and she seems to enjoy herself at every given moment. It’s really a pleasure to be around her.”

Beals’ and Grier’s characters have the same father, played by veteran actor Ozzie Davis, just one of numerous celebrity guest stars on the show. (Today, Snoop Dogg is playing a character named Slim Daddy in the video rehearsal scene).

“Pam’s character had a terrible relationship with her father; Bette has tried to be the model daughter,” says Beals, offering a little insight into the family dynamic. “I love him and want to please him, but I think it’s hard for him to accept Bette being gay.”

It’s been 20 years since Beals made a splash in Flashdance, but as we sit face to face, I’m thinking to myself that she must’ve been about 12 when she did that role. She might be a mature actress now with a husband and two stepchildren, but she’s still stunningly beautiful.

“I’m a lesbian and biracial on the show, and we deal with it all the time,” says Beals, adding that she’s “immensely proud” to be involved in a series that has the potential to break down stereotypes and “help people look at each other in a different way.”

Typically, the cast will work all day, then go out to dinner together, but not tonight. Location work is notorious for dragging on, with actors waiting for hours to shoot a scene. This is one of those days.

The good part about this marathon shoot is that the cast has time to talk to me. (Lombard, Mabius and Kirshner all have the day off.) What I hear repeatedly is that after five months into the six-month shooting schedule, the friends on the show are pals off the set as well. In their free time, the actors dine together, go to clubs, hike around scenic Vancouver or watch Sex and the City.

“I had everybody over to my house last weekend; it was really fun,” says Beals, who loves the area so much she has owned a home here for several years.

“I consider some of these girls to be some of the closest friends I’ve made — ever,” says Erin Daniels, who plays closeted tennis pro Dana.

Daniels certainly looks the part of a professional athlete — lean and fit with intensity in her blue eyes, her hair restrained in a sporty do. She’s one cast member who is even prettier in person.

“Hi, it’s Erin,” she says, playfully grabbing my tape recorder. We sit at a lunch table while she snacks on her “snappy.” Snappies are a concoction that Leisha Hailey and Mia Kirshner invented: a rice cake or cracker piled with tuna and covered with avocado.

“It’s very healthy,” assures Daniels, who stays in shape not only because of her snappy diet but also because of regular tennis workouts.

“That’s all me, there’s no faking in there,” Daniels says proudly of her matches on-screen. She’s been taking lessons since last November to ace the physical demands of the role.

But Daniels wants more than just to look the part. She feels “a huge responsibility” to lesbians who expect to see their lives reflected for a change. Dana struggles with low self-esteem and insecurity. Tennis is the one thing she thinks she does right, and she fears she’d lose it if she came out.

“I think that scares her to death but being miserable in the closet is not a fun place to live either, so there’s that struggle,” Daniels says.

Daniels grew up in St. Louis with parents who supported the arts and had many gay friends, so she understands the struggles and wants to get it right.

“There’s so much fluff out there, I think it’s really special to be part of something that can make a difference in people’s lives,” she says.

All of the actors are taking their roles seriously, but one can’t help but notice something as they wander around the set together, especially today with Daniels, Hailey and Moennig loitering in low-rise, form-fitting pants. Youthful, attractive and model-thin — I’m thinking a lesbian Charlie’s Angels.

Later in the day, Laurel Holloman, who plays Bette’s partner, Tina, admits that the cast has been asked “why everyone has to be so beautiful.”

Sadly, the average viewer will probably argue that “real lesbians don’t look like this” because they’re used to the stereotypes. Personally, if I want to see an overweight dyke with no fashion sense, I’ll look in the mirror. I, for one, am glad that this is not reality television.

The show is set in West Hollywood (Vancouver is just a stand-in for financial reasons), a trendy, upscale city where celebrities and industry people eat, shop and play. It’s an environment that’s familiar to Ilene Chaiken, a former television executive and the show’s creator, head writer and executive producer.

But even if the characters confound your gaydar, the issues are universal.

Take Shane, the resident hairstylist-heartbreaker, played by Katherine Moennig (referred to as Kate around the set). There’s a Shane in every bar from here to Pensacola.

In the script, Shane is described as a confident single babe who can get anyone she wants. (Actress Tammy Lynn Michaels makes a guest appearance as one of Shane’s conquests who does not take rejection well.)

It’s easy to see why Moennig was cast as the irresistible yet unattainable lesbian. Tall, dark and steamily seductive, she has an angelic face but a cool, streetwise demeanor.

Raised in an artistic home in Philadelphia, after prep school Moennig attended the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York.

She has performed sexually diverse characters before, including a girl disguised as a boy in the Dawson’s Creek spinoff Young Americans, and a recent role as a transsexual on an episode of Law and Order.

“I didn’t plan it,” she says, seated outdoors on the metal steps of a trailer. “They were just these amazing, meaty roles. I thought, I’m not going to turn down the opportunity, this is a great character.”

When she read the L Word script, “I just remember that the character description was very complimentary. I thought if I got it, wow, I’d be immensely flattered.”

Asked if she has Shane’s “gifts,” Moennig gets flustered — for once — and laughs: “Oh god, I don’t know. You should ask the people who I date — I don’t know. No comment!”

One thing Moennig isn’t embarrassed about is her character’s sexuality. If she has a good rapport with another actor, she says, “I’ll go as far as needed” on-screen. “Why hide it? It’s what we all do in life.”

One of the steamiest scenes in the pilot, however, is between Bette and Tina (Beals and Holloman), the committed couple who’s been together for seven years. They want a baby, and Tina quits her job to have it. They deal with stressful issues as they race to find a donor, and the ordeal strains their relationship.

Tina is “incredibly maternal,” says Holloman, who is best known to lesbian film fans as the particularly nonmaternal Randy in The Incredibly True Adventure of Two Girls in Love. Tina is nothing like Randy, which is why Holloman was eager to play another lesbian.

“[Randy] was incredibly butch,” says Holloman. “Tina was in a heterosexual relationship until she met Bette, the first and only woman she’s ever been with.”

Tina seems to have more in common with Holloman herself.

“I’m married now, and I have been for a year,” she says. Her husband, Paul, is visiting the set today, and she spends most of the day with him.

“I think I connect with her wanting to be a mom … a lot of issues women have in their 30s about having children and wanting to still have a career comes up with my character. When she decides to walk away from her career and have a child, she loses a lot of identity … and becomes incredibly codependent on Jennifer’s character.”

Holloman grew up “tomboyish” in North Carolina and went to boarding school with “tons of lesbians.” But today she appears decidedly femme, not only because she’s dressed in a sari but because of her delicate voice and mannerisms and shoulder-length blond hair.

“There are all types of different women on our show,” butch, femme and everything else, she says. So it’s “bizarre” to her that some people complain that the actors are too pretty. “I don’t know one woman on our set who hasn’t gone on an audition and been told we’re too short, too tall … or you’re constantly being told you’re not pretty enough.”

While she hopes the show will act as a bridge between the gay and straight communities, ultimately, her responsibility as an actress is to Ilene Chaiken. “It’s her story; she wrote it,” Holloman says.

Chaiken is the most intense person on the L Word set, darting from soundstage to trailer with cell phone and notes in hand. Getting her to sit for 20 minutes in a secluded upstairs office feels like a coup.

“I want to tell my stories,” says Chaiken, who’s been pitching The L Word (originally titled Earthlings) to television execs for years. With the success of Queer as Folk on Showtime and all the other gay-themed shows cropping up, the climate is finally right for the project that she calls more personal than anything she’s ever done.

But The L Word is not just her story.

“We have a mixed writing staff dominated by these lesbian voices, and we’ve all had these very different life experiences,” she says. “I’ve been with my partner [Miggy] for 20 years, and we have 8-year-old twin girls. Some [of the writers] are single and out in the clubs, some are in new relationships. … Other people have lived more on the fringes and been interested in the subcultures.”

So if you can’t relate to chic West Coast chicks, Chaiken says, if the show is around long enough most lesbians will eventually see themselves.

“We’re telling a story about a group of friends. I wouldn’t characterize them as a particular kind of lesbian. They’re just a group of people who know one another and whose lives are linked because of friendship and romance,” she says.

The work plods into the night. Leisha Hailey, the only “out” lesbian in the cast, is off-limits because she’s agreed to an exclusive interview with another publication. But she’s friendly, cheerful — and maybe a little flirtatious? She plays a bisexual reporter and is wearing a pair of pointy beige boots with 4-inch heels, so I have to ask, “Are they yours, or do they belong to wardrobe?”

Alas, they came from wardrobe. But she has a pair just like them at home — in black, she says slyly, flashing a Cheshire grin.

I’m smitten! But then, that’s been a recurring theme all day — not just because the actors are striking, but because I’m impressed with their openness and their commitment to the show and to portraying their lesbian characters honestly.

The shoot edges toward midnight and it’s time for my visit to end. I think Moennig’s comment sums up my feeling about the show well: “I don’t know what kind of response it’s going to get, but it’s definitely going to get a response, and people are going to take notice.”

Meanwhile, the cast and crew order pizza.

Ellen DeGeneres Elle Interview

ELLEN THE GENEROUS

SOME STARS' SUCCESS SEEMS TO DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS, ELLEN DEGENERES IS ONE OF THOSE STARS. HOW DID A NICE, NORMAL SUBURBAN GIRL CONQUER THE CUTTHROAT WORLD OF DAYTIME TELEVISION?

By Patricia Marx

You can be nice or you can be funny, but you cannot be both—the comic mojo’s not supposed to work that way. Anyone who has ever seen Ellen DeGeneres’ talk show or tuned in last year when she hosted the Oscars knows that she is indeed hilarious. I therefore brace myself for the worst as I make my way up into the sinuous reaches of the Hollywood Hills and hike up her driveway, which is lined with gorgeous yellow flowers.

And there, at the door of her U-shape post-and-beam house, is Ellen, in a pale blue work shirt, long khaki shorts, and sneakers, wearing no discernible makeup. I smile gamely, and she grins broadly, welcoming me inside. The stunning wood, slate, and glass structure—one of two houses DeGeneres shares with her girlfriend, actress Portia de Rossi—is built around a nifty hexagonal swimming pool and adorned with folk-art sculptures and abstract drawings.

So, let’s see, Ellen is funny, has exquisite taste, and seems very happy—plus, she’s nice. And, oh—did I mention that she’s among the most successful people in Hollywood? That the ever-more-popular The Ellen DeGeneres Show has so far won 21 Emmy awards—including the one for Outstanding Talk Show for four years running? That she is reportedly worth some $65 million? Ellen’s accomplishments are especially impressive considering that she works in a town where it helps hugely to be male, straight, and/or in rehab.

I linger at the house for close to two hours, and we talk about matters both weighty and trivial. Among the topics we cover: children (Ellen and Portia have decided not to have any because their lives are wonderful as is), human nature (Ellen believes everyone is basically good), and a dog bowl that must be returned because it’s the wrong height (if you have any say in your reincarnation, come back as Ellen’s pet, she advises). Ellen is, simply, a delightful presence. If I didn’t like her so much, I’d certainly hate her.

ELLE: When you first came to L.A., did you get any good advice?
Ellen DeGeneres: Not one bit. Every­one said it was going to be so easy. I had the perfect look for sitcom, and I was going to get something right away, and I was going to have my own show, and none of that happened for a long, long time. Instead, I did stand-up for probably another 10 years and struggled. But it was all good.
ELLE: Yes—look what happened to Lindsay Lohan. It’s hard to make it so fast and furious.
ED: I think it’s harder than it ever was, and paparazzi are photographing every single thing you do. I’m sure a lot of people made mistakes—they just were not documented the way they are now.
ELLE: The universe was on time, as they say, for you and your career.
ED: Yes.
ELLE: You’ve won all these Emmys for your talk shows, and I keep thinking when I watch your show, God, she’s funny every day. Is there ever a day when you wake up and you’re like, “I don’t want to talk today”?
ED: Sure.
ELLE: How do you get through it?
ED: It’s what comes naturally to me, so it’s like anybody who does anything for a living. Whatever it is, even if you’re not in the mood, you still can do it. Sometimes it turns out to be a great day because you’re just more laid-back. Even if I’m in a great mood and it’s my favorite day ever, and I have a bad guest, that’s kind of a struggle too.
ELLE: What’s your favorite thing to shop for? For me, it’s shoes.
ED: They just don’t make the kind of shoes I like—they’re hard for me to find. When I stumble upon a pair, I buy every color. Carpe Diem are the ones I just got that I love. Usually I wear tennis shoes because my feet are flat, and it hurts to wear anything other than shoes that are cushiony. I end up looking tiny next to Portia because she wears heels all the time. So, for the record—I’m taller!
ELLE: Do you have a favorite designer or piece of clothing?
ED: No. I like YSL a lot, but I also like Jil Sander, Dries Van Noten, and Comme des Garçons. But I have nothing special that I really love.
ELLE: Does Portia borrow your clothes?
ED: Sometimes she wears my stuff, and it’s cute. If I spend $1,500 on a cashmere sweater, it stays in until we’re going someplace; she throws on that sweater to cook dinner—I love that about her. I was raised that you don’t use something nice until there’s someplace to go. I like that she puts on a cute outfit just to be around the house. She’s always coming out in a different outfit.
ELLE: Do you ever splurge on lingerie?
ED: I don’t buy the stuff—it’s either my wardrobe person or Portia. I’ve bought lingerie for Portia, but I have no idea what it costs—I don’t pay attention.
ELLE: Let me ask you this—boxers or briefs? Thongs or granny underwear?
ED: Well, isn’t there an in-between? I don’t like granny, and Portia loves thong underwear, but that to me is so uncomfortable. I like thongs on people, but I don’t want to wear one!
ELLE: You’ve hosted the Grammys and the Emmys and the Oscars. Which gig was your favorite and why?
ED: I love music, so the Grammys is fun, and the Emmys—when I hosted after 9/11, it was wonderful to be able to hit the right tone because it was such a delicate thing, and it was such a fine line to walk to make people feel good again, like it was okay that we were doing such a self-serving, selfish award show when something so tragic had happened. So I was proud of that. And with the Oscars, there’s so much pressure on you, and everybody says, “Why would you ever do that?” Because if you do well, it’s kind of like an “Oh, well.” And if you don’t, you’re slammed forever. So that was a big challenge for me, and I was really happy with how that turned out.
ELLE: I loved you so much in EDtv and Finding Nemo. If you have a hiatus, are you going to make another movie?
ED: My manager and my agent want me to, but whenever I have time off, I’m really happy to have time off.
ELLE: It’s been 10 years since you came out. It’s hard to remember what a big deal that was. It seems like more and more people are comfortable being out.
ED: Well, it is a big deal. We all know people in this business who are gay and are married or have girlfriends or boyfriends. If it wasn’t a big deal, we wouldn’t have that, and I think the more visibility—and not even a sexual preference thing, just any kind of honesty—the more we have representation, people won’t feel so bad.
ELLE: But now the girl from Welcome to the Dollhouse, Heather Matarazzo—I love that she stepped up and said, “I’m a gay young female Hollywood actress.”
ED: Yes, and I think a lot of people are completely fine with it. But Portia—it was a big decision for her. We’d known each other for three years, and one of the reasons it took so long—we talk about it now—she’s like, “I thought to myself, There’s no way I could be with her because I wouldn’t have a career.” It was not an easy thing for someone who had a career to choose to be with me, when I was so public.
ELLE: Right.
ED: I give her a lot of credit for taking a chance and saying that she didn’t care what happened to her career. She cared about us being together.
ELLE: It doesn’t matter what your sexuality is—you are so lucky that someone loves you that much, right? We should all have that in our lives.
ED: Exactly, and that’s what you think parents would care about. I think a lot of parents say, “It’s just that they’re not going to be happy, or they’re not going to find love, or it’s going to be a hard road.” But the longer they feel that way and the longer it stays in the closet like that, then they are going to have a hard road. If they’re pretending to be someone they’re not, they’re definitely not going to find love—because you’re not going to attract what’s supposed to come to you if you’re not putting out who you really are.
ELLE: For all that we pride ourselves on being a country that is giving power to women, isn’t there still an undercurrent of resentment toward women who finally get into a powerful position? I just don’t see how you could say women are anywhere near on an equal footing with men, especially in Hollywood.
ED: I’m sure men have their own ways of trying to demean one another, but women can be very gossipy and judgmental, and that doesn’t help. People give me such a hard time because I don’t wear dresses. What’s that got to do with anything? I think there’s a whole bunch of things that go along with being a girl. You’re not supposed to have opinions or be tough or strong. You’re supposed to be soft and vulnerable, and I find those qualities important in both men and women. I think you can be strong and vulnerable. And you can be soft and tough. But for whatever reason, men and women say, “She’s not soft enough. She’s not feminine enough,” and they find it off-putting and have to judge everybody. I think that’s just sort of where we are in the world. We’re very judgmental—you have to think the way I do and look the way I do. For some reason, we can’t just enjoy somebody else’s success. Somehow that’s going to affect us. If they have more, then I have less—and I don’t know why.
ELLE: Is fame different for a woman than for a man?
ED: I think gender plays a part in most things, but I don’t know how it would be different because I’ve never been a man. And my fame is different from Nicole Kidman’s or Sharon Stone’s. I think everybody’s fame is different.
ELLE: If you could vote for any actor or actress in Hollywood to become president, who would it be?
ED: Sandra Bullock. She’s smart and funny, and I think she would be fair. She’s direct. Sandra would be a good president.
ELLE: Didn’t you turn down the lead in Speed?
ED: No. That’s what everybody thinks. I would not have turned that down, but what people don’t know is that Miss Congeniality was written based on me. A writer saw me when I was hosting the Emmys for the first time, a long time ago, when I wore a dress, and I was on Primetime. They were filming me behind the scenes backstage, and a stylist, this gay man, was teaching me how to walk in a dress and heels, because you walk differently—you have to put your feet in front of each other instead of sideways. The writer saw that and started writing Miss Congeniality, which I’m still furious about, because if he was writing it for me, why didn’t he offer it to me? They gave it to Sandra Bullock instead.
ELLE: Hilarious.
ED: Yes, so she’s got a good career because of me.
ELLE: Were you ever offered a role that you wish you hadn’t turned down?
ED: The Opposite of Sex.
ELLE: Oh, I love that—with Christina Ricci.
ED: The writer/director offered me the part that Lisa Kudrow got. I thought it was brilliant, and I wanted to take it. But that was when I was with Anne [Heche], and Anne was adamantly against me doing it because, if you remember, Christina’s character was very antigay, and it was right after I came out, so that’s why it would have been brilliant for me to play that role. But Anne was adamant that I not do it. We argued over it. I thought it was brilliant, the movie was going to be great, and I’d never done a movie at that point, so it was a huge opportunity for me. I’d never been offered anything; I’d only auditioned. So anyway, I didn’t do it because Anne didn’t want me to do it. That was a bummer.
ELLE: Where do you keep all your Emmys?
ED: In my gym.
ELLE: Really? Do you use them for hand weights?
ED: No—I could. They’re lined up on a whole row of cabinets. It’s crazy!